What A CRO Scope Reveals

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Typically you can tell a lot from just who which teams are reporting into a chief revenue officer. And so typically you would obviously expect the sales team to be reporting into a chief revenue officer. But if they don't have teams like customer success, or if they don't have teams like onboarding, implementation, support, even, maybe even marketing, then I start to wonder if what they've really just have is someone who's responsible for the bookings target, not the full revenue target. Revenue is actually a lagging indicator of customer centricity. Dinosaurs, people who will be completely companies, industries, et cetera, who will be completely wiped away. They're the dinosaur. You will have cockroaches, the ones who, no matter what, this industry, this vertical, it will likely never evolve or evolve so slowly into this. And then you've got cheetahs. And so the cheetahs are the ones where AI is going to either revolutionize that industry, revolutionize that company. We have an amazing episode for you today. We have uh Bridget Winston, a CRO, who's been a CRO for tech companies, for membership companies, all sorts of organizations who comes from background that varies tremendously. And she brings all that together in a really interesting and engaging way. I think you'll just find her uh brilliant from many points of view. She can talk the talk about almost anything, any subject that she's interested in, and most people will be interested in, but she also understands the metrics that drive an organization together, and she takes a longer-term point of view in running the revenue function for companies. She sees the changes that are occurring with regard to AI and talks about how people need to make impact very quickly, not just utilizing the tools, but having a demonstrable impact when they come in on day one. She also takes a nuanced view in how she manages people and how she comes into a new business and not looking to necessarily release them right away, make quick decisions, but look at the entire incentive structure. So I think you're really going to enjoy this. This is the a person with a great balance between how to do things well, do things right, and then measure those things and do this in a balanced and productive way. She's definitely a competitive leader, and and obviously she's played soccer and sports all her life, and she brings a lot of that experience to bear in how she takes businesses forward. So I think it's gonna be a joy to watch. And then she really knocks it out in the game.

Bridget Winston And The Big Shift

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Welcome to the Spark of Ages podcast. We're joined by Bridget Winston, the Chief Revenue Officer at Patient Now, leading go-to-market and customer-facing teams across a rapidly growing vertical SaaS platform in the fast-expanding $20 billion aesthetics and wellness industry. A three-time CRO with over 20 years of experience, Bridget was formerly CRO at Chief, where she led membership growth from 1,500 people to 20,000 and helped the company reach a $1.1 billion valuation. During her tenure, Chief was recognized by Time as one of the hundred most influential companies and by Fast Company as one of the most innovative companies. Before that, Bridget served as the CRO of Shutterstock, growing revenue to $300 million, and as VP of sales and customer success at Shortel, armed with an MBA from Pepperdine University and a BA from the University of Alabama, where she played Division I soccer with a full scholarship, no less. Bridget also serves on the board of directors for the global nonprofit Child Fund International. Some of the key takeaways you can expect from this episode, the CRO shift, owning systems over sales, building brand for the LLM era, and finally managing performance from human teams to digital agents. Bridget, welcome to the Spark of Ages. Oh, I'm so excited to be here with you. And I will tell you, that division one college soccer stat, I use that in every interview. I tell you, I know I've been in business for 20 years, and I throw that in every time I can because I think it is the thing that got me my first sales job. And it's just one of those things that I can pepper in and it kind of gives a little bit of background on who I am. I I always find that those who play any kind of sport, especially team sports and lead and where they have to lead and work with a team, and you know they're competitive, you know they're you know people are gonna fight for that extra and they're gonna keep honing their craft. It's always a great indicator of whether that person that you're gonna work with is gonna be successful. So well, and I've always had people ask that question, or at least it there has been two interviews where people asked the, do you love to win or do you hate to lose question? And I think I'm sad to say, I think I'm really a hate to lose person. Uh oh. I want to be, I want to be a love to win person, but I think there's just an element of like, I just cannot handle losing. I'm growing. I'm growing though. So so we'll see. Maybe at some point I will be a love to win person as well. You know what? There's many ways of motivating someone. And a lot of times, especially high achievers, the fear of losing, the fear of looking bad is something that motivates them,

Bookings Vs Full Revenue Ownership

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and it works. So let me start with this question. You've strongly emphasized that a true CRO is not just a glorified VP of sales. You must own the entire revenue system, making trade-offs for marketing, sales, and customer success. When you're advising CEOs, investors, and boards, what is the most common misalignment you see between what a board expects a CRO to do and what a highly effective CRO actually needs to be doing? Oh, I love this question. Yes. My uh very big hot take I have is whenever I am talking about the role of a chief revenue officer, first off, I think there's a couple of things that that go into it. First off, I like to understand what is the what's the remit of this person? And so typically you can tell a lot from just who which teams are reporting into a chief revenue officer. And so typically you would obviously expect the sales team to be reporting into a chief revenue officer. But if they don't have teams like customer success, or if they don't have teams like onboarding, implementation, support, even, maybe even marketing, then I start to wonder if what they've really just have is someone who's responsible for the bookings target, not the full revenue target. So I always like to look at the remit of the of the role and how many teams or which teams are reporting into the CRO. I also like to look at, you know, what are what are the revenue targets or let's call it the metrics that you're responsible for? Is it just the bookings target? Is it GRR? Is it NRR? Do you care or even know about things like LTV to CAC? Things like that. So those actually start to indicate to me if a CEO is thinking of a chief revenue officer as that full stack, someone who owns that that full responsibility for the revenue and the efficiency, the efficient acquisition of that revenue and the lifetime value of a customer. So I always like to dig in on a couple of those things, both with boards and with CEOs, to determine really what are they hiring for and what is the, what's the, you know, kind of the job to be done for this chief revenue officer. Yeah. So I think in in in that case, you're you're looking if you're if someone's looking for NRR, right? Then they're looking at the whole thing. Exactly. And they're gonna try to power you to that. And because many times good C good CEOs may have come from the revenue side and they be, they may be looking at you to be their right hand to be or a a CRO to be a good right hand, which may not be what you want. I think sometimes you want to be the one who owns the whole thing and a CEO to truly be a CEO. Right. Well, and I think the the other thing that it will tell you too is how much of a focus do they actually, do they truly have product market fit with their ICP? Because to me, that's the other thing. GRR is the thing that tells you, all right, not only did you do you, yes, you had to acquire those customers at some point, hopefully efficiently with a good CAC payback, but then did they stay with you and then did they expand with you? So it really tells you so much more than just, you know, okay, what's the responsibility of a CRO? It tells you about that company, period. If they actually know who their ideal customer profile is, that customer sees so much value with them that not only do they stay, but they expand their spend with you. Even if things like GRR are top of mind for the CEO and the board, which it should be for for anyone who's in in SaaS, then then uh it just tells you and you want to know what those numbers are too before you take a

SaaSpocalypse And The Metrics That Matter

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roll. Absolutely. So I mean you you hit right upon it. So when you're looking at the the B2B SaaS landscape, right? And the people are talking with AI today about SaaS pocalypse, right? Oh yes. So you're talking about GRR, NRR, right? These these recruit these ratios that help under help you understand whether the growth you have is truly due to your product or good selling or good implementation, good success. So what do you consider the most critical indicator on that dashboard that worries you the most that that you want to really hit upon? Well, I love this. The SaaSpocalypse, I think I'm intrigued by it. I am studying it, and I will also say that I think it's a bit overblown, but not unfounded. So I will say I am I'm studying it, I'm learning all about it. I went to a recent session, AI session, and they were talking about that you will have dinosaurs, people who will be completely companies, industries, et cetera, who will be completely wiped away. They're the dinosaur. You will have cockroaches, the ones who, no matter what, this industry, this vertical, it will likely never evolve or evolve so slowly into this. And then you've got cheetahs. So these are all the different types of companies. And so you've got the dinosaurs, the cockroaches, and the cheetahs. And so the cheetahs are the ones where AI is going to either revolutionize that industry, revolutionize that company, revolutionize the pricing components, the way that you measure your metrics, uh your average revenue per employee, the GRR, NRR. I've also been hearing a lot of folks talking about how the, you know, let's call it the avant-garde companies that are coming up right now that are really, you know, focusing on AI as like their go-to-market motion, right? AI native companies. In some ways, they're going through a little bit of an experimental ARR approach right now, right? It's experimental RR. Um, and so ERR. They're literally just building, they're out there, they're growing super fast. People are trying them. Are the revenues from is the AR truly permanent or not? Is the question, right? Because I mean, somebody may be hot and explodes in usage, mostly because they're giving amazing functionality away. Because they're trying to learn what works right now, exactly. Because they're in that test and learn mode. And the constraint is no longer the actually, you know, coding or doing any of the releases and frequent releases. And so what we've been, what I've been seeing too is that I try a couple, I mean, we are both a Claude customer, an anthropic customer, and an open AI chat GPT customer. At some point, something's gonna win out, or it's all gonna be built into some other product that we either create ourselves or is built into is something it's built on. Just like you say, I'm seeing it as a mix of both, right? I've seen friends of mine say he's some kind of the construction industry. He's like, Do you know they added cloud enterprise to my product? So now I just do stuff there and it goes back and forth into my software. Like, oh, that's that's clever. Maybe. I know our our cloud contract was built into our AWS contract, allowed it to be HIPAA compliant, all of the other things that we need from AWS. So I think we're still obviously very much in the early stages, but you'd be you'd be crazy to not learn, dig in, try everything. I mean, we've got a part of our product at Patient Now that is a traditional more SaaS, you know, kind of a subscription sale, you know, every month there's a component. And then we've got an AI-based product too. Now, both of them are still priced very much like a SaaS model that's working for our customer base. Is it still based on like user count or is it based on it's based on number of locations for us? Number of locations, number of locations and number of users within the location. But it is interesting. And we, we ourselves, I've been studying Kyle Poyer, if you know him. He writes a really interesting sub stack called Growth Unhinged. He posted something recently that was talking about how our entire pricing model, the SaaS pricing model, that good, better, best pricing model is a world that's meant for human psychology. So it's really interesting, right? Then you think about it, okay, good, better, best. All right, I'm gonna go with the middle tier. But in a world where maybe it's not a human making that choice and it's an agent, you're frankly just running somewhat of a conjoint model in that world, right? Like a live conjoint model. Well, I want this of this package, I want this of this package. And so at some point, maybe you're crafting your own packages. So I'm just I I'm intrigued. I'm studying it, I'm thinking about it a lot. We haven't changed any of our pricing models yet, but I think there's something to it. And probably because your market buyer is just more used to it. Yeah. You're not selling to developers, right? So exactly. And they actually would rather have that consistent monthly price in so, and I mean, and for us too, right? Even if we were to price something, we would have to all of a sudden, you know, do probably all sorts of data scientist models to even know exactly okay, how how best do we price this to for them to get the best value out of it. So I think it'll be, it'll be in a really interesting time. Your number one metric, though, that you're looking for, is it still this notion of GRR? My number one metric is GRR and NRR. I would say that's what sets a CRO apart. The best way I help my CEO, though, is rule of 40. So I'm looking at EVITA and growth rate. Growth rate, right. Rule of 40. But in this world, rule of 70 is now the thing that's actually starting to with certain investors, right? But then those are lagging indicators, right? So then what do you think of as your what's your leading indicator then? I love this question, Rajiv. Those are all things that happen afterwards. So you're sitting there trying to make sure you're looking at the full pipeline, you're trying to draw folks in. How do you know whether what you're doing is actually working? Because all those things might happen at the time of sale, a quarter after sale, et cetera. Oh, I love this.

Revenue Follows Customer Centricity

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Okay. So this week I was at an off-site with my entire company. Uh, we did something in Park City. So I brought everyone and I got up there. Here I am, the CRO. Everyone thinks I'm gonna get up there and talk bookings, revenue growth, GRR, NRR, all of these things. And I, what I got up there and I said revenue is actually a lagging indicator of customer centricity. And so that is actually what I believe your true value. Things like NPS, CSAT, maybe even TAM penetration rate are things that I think matter more as well as like brand awareness uh within your category. I think that matters potentially more. You can also measure it. Again, these are all some of these end up being lagging indicators too, but LTB to CAC too, just so that you can start to see, okay, how much penetration, yes, do we have with our ICP customer, but also do they see so much value that they continue to spend with us? So yeah, there's no shortage of metrics, but I do think that revenue in general is a lagging indicator. And it's a hot take for a revenue leader to have, because typically the revenue team usually gets a lot of the fanfare within an organization. And I would say we are all, you know, how accurate our bill is, finance team, you know, how supported the teams feel, uh, you know, from HR's perspective and the people team, like all of those things actually really end up all contributing to that feeling of customer centricity and truly how how you actually go to market. So it's more than just that revenue, although very important metric, especially with your board and investors.

Winning Discovery In The LLM Era

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Yeah. And you pointed out B2B marketing is starting to look more like consumer marketing. Yes. Because LLMs are fed by earned media and consumer review sites like Reddit and G2. So as LLMs increasingly dictate how B2B buyers discover software, what specific consumer marketing tactics are you bringing to patient now to ensure your brand is the one that AI recommends? As a note to that, I just came from a Forester conference and that was the whole thing. They there was like a go-to-market singularity, and they were like saying, Well, you know, your traffic is gonna drop 30%, 40%, 90%, because folks are now going to LLMs to go further down the stock of making a decision. So now you have to influence it. Well, I mean, do you remember that old stat? I guess I don't know, this might have been in like, you know, the aughts where it was like customers are 57% of the way through their sales process before they ever engage a salesperson. And, you know, LLMs are only going to make that even easier. So I think you you highlighted something there around, especially when you were talking a little bit about my background. I've had a pretty diverse background, right? I've sold at consumer companies, I've been at B2B SaaS companies across multiple industries, multiple functions. And so what that allows me to do is actually see what it takes to grow revenue, all the different types of plays that you can run. And so, generally speaking, I what I'd say is in B2C in consumer markets, you know, you always highlight that you care so much about the brand, that identity, the whole Simon Cynic start with why, like what connected Apple to people, you know, I'm the kind of person who is, you know, just like this, right? And then the conventional wisdom is that B2B is much more about rational, you know, it's got to have an ROI to it and everything. How does my product help a company make money or save money? That's like, you know, the biggest thought. And what I would say is that this world of consumer and B2B is starting to converge in a world of where LLMs are the the way that we're making our decisions. So tactics that you see work in the consumer world are gonna now start working in the B2B world. And they probably always did, but like now I think you've really got to be on top of it. So a focus on brand, PR, you know, like it has a revenue leader ever been like, you know, what we really need is more PR? More PR? Um, yeah, exactly. And so I and I literally I give my money. There are times I I am doing savings so that I can give my money to the marketing team and making sure that I can because earned media, PR, the founder stories, all of those things, all of that emotional resonance of the brand. We did a rebrand where we took something that, you know, our recent rebrand, like we went from a very clinical blue and white to something that feels much more spa-like, as an example, very five-star concierge, because who we sell to, they care about aesthetics. They care about what things look like. And so we wanted to make sure that our brand matched our buyer. And so I think that's just gonna become much more uh, much more resonant because people are gonna find us on Reddit, you know, especially in a vertical SaaS world, you get found because people are talking about you. It's a usually vertical sass is a let's call it relatively smaller TAM than like everyone in the world. And so the flywheel of how people are talking about you matters so much more. So Reddit, YouTube, you know, Instagram, all those things are actually going to Wikipedia. Oh, I'm speaking to someone, I'm I'm in marketing. So I'm yes, I'm I'm with you there. I think today, because people now I think it used to be 57 with Gen Z, it's gonna be 80%. 80% of people are gonna find you before you find them. I think the other stat is the first company someone finds, about 40% of the time, the first company they find is the one they buy from. Oh, that's it. The consumer tactics matter more even more than ever. It's not the blind

AI Tools For Planning And Coaching

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as before. So now you've mentioned that on the AI side, that it's accelerated your workflow. What used to take five months of capacity planning takes less than a month. AI is moving so rapidly to shrink the planning cycle. How do you ensure your revenue team is testing new AI tools without destabilizing your current operations? Yeah, I think that's a great question. And I I think that's the other thing too, is like in a world where a lot of times we, yeah, again, 20-year vet veteran of this industry. And I will tell you what's a little scary for folks that I talk to, different peer groups that I have, it's really interesting in that, you know, we all got our jobs because we had our playbooks, right? We all came in and basically, okay, I know what to do. I know how to run this. Here's what we're gonna, you know, here's the playbook we're gonna run. I'm gonna take us from here to here. Don't worry, I got it. I've got proof points of that. And in a world where your playbook is maybe now outdated, it can be a little scary. That being said, I am now starting to build my AI playbooks from company to company. So there's two companies at Chief and at Patient Now using two different AI tools that have drastically improved my workflow. And these may be ones that people have heard of or not. Everyone's always heard of, you know, the gongs, the all of that. But I'm gonna give two other ones that have been really instrumental for us. So the first one is a company called Goodwork. This is the thing that allowed me to take my territory planning, quota planning, segmentation work from five months at Chutterstock, what took us five months, and now has allowed me to do this in weeks at Patient Now and at Chief. And what this tool allows us to do is to look at your segmentation of all of your existing customer base, see who stays with you the longest, see what's their segmentation, like what are what's the grouping of all of my customers? Patient Now is a very traditional kind of vertical SaaS company that got to where it got to because we had a lot of different companies that we bought. And so we have customers who are more traditional type ICP customers, established med spas, plastic surgery centers, but we also have salon customers and we also have tattoo parlors, we've got dog grooming centers. So we've got a lot of different types of customers. And so it was important for us to actually have the right segmentation of that customer base so that then I can plan for quotas, so that I could properly do territories, so that I could understand where's my upsell potential, where's my maintain and retain type potential? And that truly, I used to start this work in August at every company I was at before, August for a January launch with the new territories and everything. Because of good work, I can now go quickly into that. It appends the data, allows my marketing team to actually add all of the segmentation data into the net new leads that are coming in too, and then appends it with extra enriched data as well. You know, kind of the world where I used to be using a Zoom Mimpo. And so it's been super helpful. So love that tool. Use it at Chief and at PatientNow. What's the second one that you love? Second one is a tool called Pro Short. Pro Short is an AI coaching tool, and everyone's familiar with Gong, listening to your calls, giving you coaching advice. This one does a little bit more than that. So not only does it help you on the upfront prep for the reps, so it does all of the upfront prep. So all of that information that I got from Goodwork, now it can prep the reps. Up on that, it listens to the call, grades the call against what a good call should look like. So whatever rubric you use, Sandler, Challenger, Sale, you know, medpick, or even just other examples of great calls, grades it against that call, tells you where the areas of opportunity were, as well as like the areas that were that rocked. And then after that call, it allows for the rep to take some of the notes from that call and either put it in their follow-up email to the customer based upon, you know, what they heard as the follow-up action items. Or even better, let's say the customer says yes, it automatically creates new customer memo notes so that the handoff between my sales team and my onboarding team is seamless. And that's all just the benefit for the rep. That's huge time savings. And if it's recording all of it, they can go check and make sure it's correct. Because we do hundreds, we do hundreds of calls a month. And so for my sales leaders, they actually, because obviously those are all the benefits for the rep, but then there's benefits for the the sales manager as they're kind of providing a little oversight, providing coaching. And so it's just been instrumental. And I've used both of those AI tools, both at Chief and at Pro Shorts. So I'm starting to build my little playbook now of AI tools that I can I can get comfortable with. And I'm sure that this will not end. No, no, I think as they go, you'll have systems that orchestrate across them to make sure that you're retaining corporate context across them. So there'll be lots of opportunities there. And I think that's where things are going.

Community-Led Growth Over Paid Ads

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And so you had a story that you told on another podcast about a cybersecurity company that focuses on CISOs, those chief information security officers, that completely stopped running paid ads and instead invested entirely in community-led growth like WhatsApp groups and retreats. So for a typical B2B SaaS company that's heavily reliant on traditional paid acquisition activities, what are the first steps that you'd recommend that they take to genuinely transition that budget into a genuine self-sustaining community? Test and learn community. It is, and I, you know, maybe it's because I worked at Chief and I just saw the power of community and membership organizations in sort of that consumer lens of the way that you can actually, you know, kind of find and maybe it's also because post-COVID, people are craving connection and gathering. I'll tell that story just a little bit so that it kind of reiterates the point. But one of my friends, he's a CEO of a cybersecurity company, and he was spending so much money on all of this paid media. And I said, Look, I know that it's tempting because you've got a great ABM strategy that you can run. You know who these SISOs are of all of these top banks, but you also have such an emotional play. And that was, you know, kind of he looked at me, you know, a little, a little like, what? An emotional play. I'm selling B2B. Yeah, exactly. I'm selling B2B, right? Back to where our consumer, consumer is much more emotional versus B2B. You think you just have a rational play. But imagine, imagine being a SISO, right? Your job every day is on the line. At one point, your name could end up in the paper, you know, on social media. You need community more than anybody. It's lonely being a CISO. Similarly, for patient now, it is lonely being a med spa owner. It is lonely being a small business owner. You need community more than anything. You need to talk with other people who are going through the same thing because you have to look like you've got it all together for the team that reports to you and the people who are banking their livelihoods on you. And so you need that community. And so what he did after, you know, we were talking, I said, look, you know, just test and learn a maybe a retreat in Napa or something, you know, you know, some good good dinner locally. Bring them together and just see what happens. And come to find out, they all have a WhatsApp group, you know, that they're all in, right? Of course they do, because they're we're recommending talking with each other, they're chatting about what they heard from different vendors, they're honestly sharing issues and problems. I'm sure you're doing something similar. We have our growth marketing summit. We get people together for four days, and they, in addition to the content, they're just hanging out with each other, sharing problems. And solutions. And yeah, problems, solutions. And you know, at Chief, we always used to say you're cross-pollinating those ideas because the way, and it's even better when you're actually talking to people who maybe work at a different company versus just the people who have your own context, or even people who maybe even expand beyond your role or function. Chief, we we always found it really good to bring like a CRO, a CMO, a CFO all together because the way that they might solve that problem might be something a little different, right? Or they would have a little additional context. So maybe, maybe we can even expand the growth summit or marketing summit to uh even have a couple more in it. Yeah, I think it really helps to have that multi multiple functions. It's more it says marketing, but there are months, multiple functions coming to these events to share ideas and information. And so I wonder, like when you're operationalizing your customer success teams, like you get all this great word of mouth coming from the conversations that are happening with your clients and customers, right? So is there a way that you would operationalize that earned media or the great comments that are you're getting from those experiences of onboarding and folks successfully using your product so that you can train the LLMs to favor your platform over others? It's so interesting. We actually just at our offsite this week, we were talking through that. Like, how do we take these customer testimonials that we have in email that we have on QBR calls, right? And the good news is that Pro Short tool is allowing us to do that. So because we are using that tool across sales and my customer success team, I can actually start to identify how often it's coming up. So that's you know, step one is identify it. Number two is what do I do with it? Right. And so we have an amazing social team. And this buyer, what's so interesting is the buyer for Patient Now very much buys because uh Instagram and TikTok. Very few are actually on LinkedIn, which is really interesting. You know, LinkedIn is definitely for my investors, maybe for some of my more enterprise partners. That's not where your med spa folks are. Exactly. But my med spa folks, and so what we have actually found a lot of useful tactics is in featuring them in our own ads, you know, frankly, being the voice of us and the voice of like the value that they received. So we've been actually just using it as a social campaign, but I'd love any tips. What else should we do? What else should we do, Rajiv? Now that we have these great testimonials, what else? We yeah, we should build them up, promote them, connect them, have them speak at your events. As you know, there's a million great things you can do. Yeah, we actually we had them at our panel. Whenever we have an event, we always bring in clients, current clients with great potential prospects with opinion leaders in a diverse group. Nothing. And then activating like local dinners, it's on it's there's a little bit of that community strategy that you bring into that too. And so actually at our offsite this week, we brought we did a whole customer panel where we basically were like, look, you have the entire company here too. Tell us what you're loving, tell us what we can fix, and you know, what could be 10% better. But I also think the local strategy is really important too. So testing and learning what's going to work in like St. Louis versus LA, you know, versus Tampa, bringing together some of those local leaders where they can form community. And I agree with you, you always pepper in customer with prospects and then just let the magic fly. That's right. And I think that's the core part of what these folks are doing, right? They're setting up these spa locations or these wellness locations in multiple places, and they have to understand that the strategy you want the consistency of the overall brand, but the str of how you execute or how people see you or even buy from you may be different location by location. Yeah, yeah. So interesting. So you made a fascinating

Prompting AI As Manager Training

29:20

observation about prompting AI. When you tell Chat GPT this is wrong, it apologizes. Oh my god. Oh, you went into the you went into the uh into the depths of my LinkedIn, didn't you, Rajiv? I love it. I have a good AI crawler, but when you say when it doesn't match the quality usually deliver, it steps up its game. And you know this is also with people. So as AI agents increasingly become part of our go-to-market teams, how are you adapting your leadership style to manage the intersection of digital subordinates and human employees? Oh, I love this so much. Actually, here's my here's my real answer that we shouldn't actually have to adapt the way that we're speaking and giving feedback. But because we are also human, we don't always, you know, coach or give feedback in the best way possible. So what I think was so fascinating about the article that I'd read about that was that actually, isn't it interesting that the way that we coach LLMs is exactly how we should coach people, right? I did a feedback session training one time where they basically said any feedback that you give should be giving as if a camera was looking and could actually see the work and could actually spot the feedback in the way that you were giving it. So for example, I had a friend one time who she she told me that she got feedback from her boss that said, you know, I just don't know what to say. Your work is just JV. It's just JV. And I was like, that is first of all, the harshest feedback. But part of the reason that that was such a bad example of feedback is because it was not specific. It was not something that you could put a camera on, a spotlight on, and say, okay, what about it was so JV, right? Like, give me an exact example. And so I think that's actually as we incorporate LLMs or prompts or agentic models into this, I think the way that people learn is I do, we do, you do. And so, in some ways, you are teaching the LLM or the agent the tasks and the way that you actually have to do something. We didn't just tell kids to go, hey, here's your tennis shoes, learn how to tie them, right? You have to break it into steps, you have to show what good looks like, you have to, you know, model it yourself. And so that's where I think both for humans and agents, those are the better, I think we'll become better coaches of our team if we actually learn how to prompt better. I I like what you're saying. I mean, I actually do still put please and yes, me too. I treat my agent like it, like a human. And I find it just easier to be consistent that way. Why should I be rude to this piece of code? Because that may then also, I might also do that when I talk to humans. Right. I think it's good. Yeah, and to your point, it'll adapt to us, it'll adapt to our style, and it'll understand that when I'm subtly giving you a point, you know, I'm just doing it for both people. It's the same. Yeah. Yeah, I love that. I love that. And and again, it can also help us be, you know, it helps us have tough conversations. I think that's I've used it for performance reviews. I've used it for, you know, tougher conversations with customers as like a coach for me too. So going back and forth on that, I think, you know, all of the LLMs actually are just going to make us be better managers if we actually use it that way. That's right.

Fix Systems Before Blaming People

32:36

Okay, so you warned also about taking best practices too seriously. And noted that the playbook that you got here may not be entirely or maybe outdated in the practice in the age of AI. So, what's one specific go-to-market best practice you were known for early in your career that you've had to aggressively unlearn to succeed in your current role at a patient now? Let me tell you the thing that I fell for early, that now I don't. So, whenever I would go into a company, because one of the things that I think I special, my superpower is what got us here won't get us there. I like to go into a company where they have product market fit, but now we actually need to pivot in some way. And so the thing I fell for always was during the interview process, consistently and without fail, everyone always tells you that the problem is the people. That that's the that's the biggest, you know, the, you know, it's just this team is just terrible. It's always just the team. It's always the team. And I think I fell for that early days, thinking, okay, yeah, you know, we got to come in, you know, clean house, you know, come in, you know, bull in a china shop and all that. And now my bull in a china shop is different in the sense that I still come in because I think maybe earlier days I went a little slower. Today I go, now I've got pattern recognition, I can see certain things. But the pattern recognition is not the people first. I first look at the systems and the processes within the company and see if the incentive structure is set up correctly, if we've actually given the people a chance. That's my that's the thing I think when I would advise anyone that when they're coming in and everyone says the people are the problem, actually don't don't take that as gospel. Go in and just see. And I'll give an example at Shutterstock. One of the things that they told me throughout the interview process is we're just not sure if the team is actually ready to sell our full product portfolio. We'll just we'll use that. Now, what I got in there, what I realized is we had not trained them on the full product portfolio. Yeah. Yeah. We there was no rhyme or reason to how many reps we had. There was not based upon a capacity plan or segmentation, or even the incentives weren't set up in a way that would facilitate them wanting to sell the full portfolio. So first look inward. That's what I always say. First look inward and see if the systems and the process and the foundations are set up. And then you can analyze the people. 1000% you should analyze the people and you can make some decisions there. But even there, you need to know what a good candidate looks like and what am I looking for? It's not just enough to do the work. You also need to be a person who kind of changes the work and makes the work better or makes the work more efficient. So there's a couple of things that you can actually start to set the stage on in terms of here's what a good, you know, sales rep looks like, here's what a good customer success manager looks like, here's what a good leader on my team looks like, and set the stage for those, for what that looks like while you're fixing maybe the process in the systems. I see. So instead of saying, hey, I'm coming in and I'm just gonna bring in my crew and clean house, you're saying, hey, let me analyze how this is. Maybe the folks I have have a lot of value, they have a lot of history, they have a lot of understanding, they have a lot of context. Maybe there's some value there. Let me see if the systems are out of whack. And then I'm gonna go back while I give the folks a model of what is great. I'm gonna go check out the system and process as well. That's a great nuance of how to come in as a leader. Well, and it's a the instinct is to come in and just have, you know, it to clean house, maybe a little bit, right? Especially if everyone during the interview process told you it's a people problem. And it's harder actually when you have to come in and actually say, no, it's actually a you problem, you know. Well, you have full license to do that right away. You have full license in the first six months to a year to do whatever you want. So that's the time when folks use that. And but it may not be the right thing. So it's great nuance to bring up. Totally. And that's what I would say is like my second learning is don't go slow. I just recently hired a VP of sales, and one of the things I put into the case prompt is on day five, right? Let's say you start on a Monday, I want to know by Friday, how will I have known that you made impact? Because I'm not looking, I do not want that traditional 30, 60, 90 day plan. And it's, you know, first I'm gonna learn, then I'm gonna listen. It's tired, I'm over it. I don't want to hear it. I want to know by day five, what told me that you made a difference at this company? By day five, I'd created a rubric of what a good sales call looks like because I'd listened to enough of them, right? I would challenge everyone. And by the way, the reason I could is because of AI, because I was able to create a lovable app that allowed me to assess a call very quickly before I could input Pro Short into the mix. And so I was able to do that on day five, and I was able to move much faster. So I don't want those traditional 30, 60, 90 day stuff. You can come in fresh and think about it right away. Bridget, this has been great. So now comes the fun part.

Spark Tank Wine Trivia Challenge

37:29

Here's the game. I'm gearing up for it. Okay, so welcome to the Spark Tank. Today we're joined by Bridget Winston, the chief revenue officer at Patient Now. Bridget, you've scaled companies through IPOs and massive valuations, but today we're trading the boardroom for the vineyard. Between executive roles, you embarked on a 75-mile solo pilgrimage across the Camino de Santiago from Portugal to Spain and immersed yourself in the culinary traditions of Tuscany while in Italy. We're putting your strategic palette and your researcher's mind to the ultimate test with the vintage growth challenge. All right. I love it. I love it. I can't wait. I can't wait. I do like to drink and eat. So hopefully I can I can do well on this quiz. There you go. You're gonna nail it. Okay, so we're gonna go deep into the science of the vine. We're gonna see if your revenue growth instincts are as sharp when it comes to the history of the bottle as they are to the future of sap. So, Bridget, are you ready to prove that you can spot a disturbed vintage as easily as a disturbed market? Well, I I love it. I uh I certainly hope so. So let's see. Let's get started. All right, here we go. As CRO, you know that a successful product isn't just about the initial launch, it's about durability and market longevity. In the business of Rioja, winemakers face a similar challenge. How to build a vintage that can survive the test of time. While Temperino is the king of Rioja, the region is also famous for Graciano. What is the primary biological reason winemakers value this specific grape in a blend? I'm gonna give you multiple choice, four choices. Okay, okay, good. And by the way, these are hard, and if you get them wrong, it doesn't matter. I like it. It doesn't matter. It doesn't, you know. I did say I hate to lose, but I don't know. I don't, I don't know. I have learned to apply my own growth mindset to a lot of things, especially with AI. So you know what? If I get it, I get it. If not, I'll just study harder. This is when you have nothing to lose because you we threw this at you out of the blue. A, so we're gonna we're talking about Graciano. It is the only grape in Spain that is immune to the Felixora pest. B, it's thick skin allows it to be harvested in freezing temperatures. C, it provides intense aroma and deep color with high acidity for aging, or D, it has naturally high sugar content to boost alcohol levels. I think Rioja is a lower alcohol, maybe in the 13s. I'm gonna go C. Why did you pick C? Because it's more of a wine type answer. It's more of a Somalier type answer. Right on with your point about the the low acidity. So C, it's correct. No, good. Okay, I got it. Ciano is a low-yield grape that is difficult to grow, but in the blend-heavy world of Rioja, it acts as a structural glue, providing the acidity and pigment necessary for a wine to age for decades. Well, that is great to know. I love Rioja. I'm glad you got a win on the board. So the rest of these graphs will be a piece of cake. Number two, Cabernet Sauvignon is perhaps the most famous grape in the world. But DNA testing at UC Davis in 1996 revealed it was actually an accidental crossbreed created in the 17th century. Which two grapes are the biological parents? So listen closely. A Cabernet Franc and Syrah, B, Cabernet Franc and Sauvignon Blanc, C, Merlot and Malbac, or D, Pinot Noir and Grenache. Okay, I'm gonna go A. Cabernet Franc and Syrah. Why'd you pick that? Cab Franc and Syrah. So there are five varieties that are in France. Cab Sauvignon Blanc, Cab Franc, Syrah, Merlot, and another one. I can't remember. Probably Pinot, maybe. And so I feel like it's like in France. Maybe those are the the top five. So I don't know. Let's see. Maybe they grew together accidentally. What if I told you it was B? Which one? No, Sauvignon Blanc? Yeah. No. That's amazing. That is a great party trip. I said, listen carefully, Cabernet Franc and Sauvignon Blanc. Yes. Oh my gosh. So that is truly why? I can't imagine Sauvignon Blanc being the reason there. That's amazing. That is the best party. Well, your party question. Yeah, I am going to now use that as a party question for sure. So it was a shock to the wine world. Cabernet Sauvignon, a red, is the offspring of a red Cabernet Franc and a white Sauvignon Blanc. This explains why young cabs often have a green or herbaceous notes similar to the white grape. More like the Sauvignon Blanc. I love this regive. I love dropping all sorts of knowledge on me. I love it. I'm learning too. Trust me. So three. In the 1970s, what was the revolutionary act that caused these world-class wines to be demoted to the lowest legal classification? Vino de tavola, which is table wine. All right. A. Using non-native French grapes like Cabernet Sauvignon in a Chianti governed zone. B using stainless steel vats instead of traditional Slavonian oak. C adding sugar to the fermentation tanks to increase the body. Or D using mechanical harvesters instead of handpicking. Ooh. I'm going to go C. C. Adding sugar to the fermentation tanks to increase the body. Because I think the other ones they're somewhat allowing potentially now, but I know this was in the 70s, but that feels like that feels like something you would absolutely demote somebody for. Yeah, if you're adding sugar, you're taking the purity away. That's a very logical answer. Well, guess what? It's actually A. So this is this whole differences in where things are coming from. So traditional Italian laws require Chianti to be primarily of San Giovesi. So when producers start making high-end blends with international grapes, they were legally stripped of their status, forcing the birth of the Super Tuscan category. Oh, well, and you know what? I did just drink a lot of Super Tuscans. So okay. All right, got it. All right. I love it, Rajiv. This is great. I like the rules of the wine land. All right. You know what? I'm gonna do this one. We have a fourth. And I think you're having fun with the I love it. Now you have more wine trivia. Question number four the chalky soil of the champagne region in France is considered its most valuable inference. Engine for quality. How does this specific soil type contribute to the serenity of the wine? Right. So chalky soil of the Champagne region. Why is it the most valuable inference engine for quality? How does it contribute to the serenity of the wine? A it reflects 90% of sunlight back up into the leaves. B it acts like a sponge, retaining water in dry years and providing steady drainage. C, it contains high levels of salt that naturally season the grapes. And D, it is so hard that vines must grow horizontally, reducing yield. Okay, it's either I I feel like it's either A or B. Okay, say him again. A is on the right track. It's one of the two. Okay, good. A is it reflects 90% of the sunlight back up to the leaves. The soil does this. That is just intriguing. I didn't wouldn't even think I think it's B. I'm gonna go B. Okay, B is the correct answer. Yay! Yay! So yes, limestone and chalk provide a unique thermostat and hydration system. They store heat during the day and release it at night while keeping the roots perfectly hydrated without being waterlogged. Yeah, I love that. Well, because I think because white grapes, they're very delicate. So I think that's good. Okay, perfect. Well, I love the I love all this trivia. You're a pro and a good sport, so thank you. Or do I just like to drink wine, Rajiv? I'm all for it. More wine is better. All right, let's go a little bit into your background.

Career Roots Range And Competitive Drive

45:22

So, did you always know you wanted to work in technology? Was there a specific moment or project that sparked your passion? What sparked you? So, my father, actually, I always tell this story. My my dad was a salesperson, but he was not always a salesperson. He was a music major and was a band director at a high school. And long story short, he somehow he lost his job as he was moving districts. And so he went into Motorola and basically said to them, Hey, I wanna, I wanna be a sales rep. And of course, they were like, No, you you're a music major, like you're a band director. Absolutely not. So he kept going after this job. And finally, after, you know, the third time he went in there, he said, you know what, it's okay. I'm gonna go work for your biggest competitor. And so they brought him in and they said, actually, okay, fine, we'll give you a shot, man. They brought him in and within the first year, he was global salesperson of the year at Motorola. And so my dad used to go around selling two-way radios and he used to take me on these sales calls at times, like if there was a time I had a day off. And so, because my dad believed so much in like training and development, because he had to, you know, kind of get himself into a training. After he, you know, kind of finished his career, he went into learning and development and training and he would do career counseling. So my dad actually did a whole, you know, kind of Myers Briggs, everything very early on me and said, Britch, you're a natural salesperson. Isn't this so funny? And so he basically said, You got to go into sales, you're a competitor, you know, this is you you like goals, all of those things. So I never knew I wanted to be in sales, let alone that I would be in technology sales. But I just one of the first jobs that I got was at Nokia selling checkpoint firewalls and VPNs. And so I've stayed in that technology realm, but I've, you know, obviously veered a little bit. Shutterstock was very different, you know, two-sided marketplace, content chief, very different membership organization, then obviously back now in technology with Patient Now. But I think it's actually been the thing that I can bring to all of these. I think that can actually be my superpower, is that I've worked in lots of different industries, lots of different companies and different roles across sales, marketing, customer success. We could just bring it all together for folks. And frankly, when you're talking to people, you sound interesting. Oh, yeah. Well, hopefully that's that's great to hear, Rajiv. When you have so many different interests, when you talk to a person, you're not just conveying your product or service, you're building a relationship with them and folks like people who have range. Yes, and range. That book is the best too. That book is the best. And I think that's the other thing that is it is shockingly similar that despite the industry, despite the company, despite even the end market, like the way you get to revenue is pretty similar across all of those, right? You've got to be a trusted brand, all of those elements. But then, you know, even just the mechanics of the funnel translate very easily across industry. It doesn't matter if it's consumer, SMB, enterprise, et cetera. Like the mechanics of that funnel, you just find those levers and then you push them and then you hire good people. Now you talked about this earlier. You reflected on whether you love to win or hate to lose, tying the latter to the concept of dirty fuel. How do you personally harness the dirty fuel of hating to lose to drive a team's performance and urgency without letting it become a toxic force that burns them out? Ooh, I I I like that. So I think unifying goals is really the way that you do that. One of the things that I noticed the first time I was a VP of sales and customer success. And it I frankly had 14 different functions that were all reporting to us into me. And what was really interesting was everyone had their goal that they knew, right? And so they knew how to do their thing right. The sales team knew that they had a bookings target, the implementation team had a time to live target, the customer success team had, you know, a CSAT or MPS target. But the one thing that we did was we actually unified across incentives, so across the entire team. So this team of 150 folks also had their primary metric. So whatever their, you know, the thing that they were responsible for exclusively. And then 25% of their compensation or their bonus was tied to something that unified across the entire team. So it kind of showed the North Star of what we grade ourselves on is retention. So that goal at the time was GRR. And so they everyone had that GRR number across the entire team. And so it allowed for us to make really interesting decisions that weren't just good for one team, but not good for the other, because we had that unifying goal across them. So we, as an example, I told this story a little bit, we found out that we would we could easily market and sell to law firms as an example. This was at Shortel. But what happened was, you know, the second that they had, you know, a blip in their phones at all, like in their dial tone at all, they would get out of their contracts. You would have gone through all of this work, paid commissions, gone through months of implementation work. And so it allowed for us to actually decide that, you know, we are actually not going to sell, like our ideal customer profile is now not going to be this law firm. And everyone could be okay with that because 25% of their compensation was also very much tied to that. So that people aren't just doing their thing right, but they're doing the overall right thing. That's, I think, how you make sure that, you know, people don't just come at problems like with their own dirty fuel, their own toxic, this is just good for me, but rather something that's good for everyone. That's great. That's a great response to it. We always ask our guests to name a historical event or person or movement that inspires you. And you answered the gilded age. What in particular about that era lights you up? I love, well, I think I said before, you know, the thing that I'm drawn to is any of those organizations where what got you here won't get you there. And so I like that with social movements. I like that with time periods. I think the 60s are another example of a time period like this. But the gilded age, I think there was just two things that were just being, or two, you know, kind of ways of life that were just confronting each other so, you know, kind of almost violently. You know, you had the the asters, you had this old money world of people liking to do things very traditionally, and then, you know, being revolutionized by, you know, families like the Vanderbilts who were bringing in, you know, railroads and you know, uh steel with the Carnegie. And so you had this social change of like people in the beginnings of suffrage, prohibition, all of these things, speaking of wine. Uh, and um, then obviously all of this economic change. And so I I think of like a time like the Gilded Age, the 60s reminds me of that time. And frankly, now is the time. I know it's just another version of that. And so I just love when two, you know, forces are kind of coming together and you have to negotiate the middle ground or the go forward plan in a way that feels very hard to navigate. I'm just drawn to those kind of moments. I love it. And especially if there's a societal change that's accompanying it with more progressive uh views and samples. It's a true test of a moment, right? There's a there's a technological change, there's a change in education, there's a it's just this massive change. Now, yes, you see a whole bunch of super wealthy people, but hopefully what they're creating or enabling is allowing a lot of people to benefit too. And there's a whole tension in it in and around it. I love that that constructive tension, that moment. And so I'm just drawn to that. I don't know why I like the I don't I don't like a status quo time. I like a I like a time where, all right, we got to get up and go, we gotta do something different. Uh before uh before this current AI time, things were moving fast, but they didn't feel it was kind of slowing up a bit, right? I agree. It's a great change. What's a piece of technology from your childhood that you genuinely miss? And if you can bring it back, what would it be? Oh my gosh. Honestly, you know what I was talking about the other day? The technology that I loved so much was the game Duck Hunt. Do you remember that from Nintendo? Duck Hunt. It was like one of the first video games I remember. And I loved Duck Hunt. And so I was talking about it with the whole crowd, and I was like, I'm sure it still exists somewhere, right? I don't know. I maybe it's uh it's probably like been upgraded or something in the latest version of the latest. I used to love that. Isn't that so random? Um, but yeah, I I remember like loving boy, was that avant-garde? Boy, was that like tip of the spear type technology having a Nintendo? So I loved that. Yeah, and it was the time back then you still had one or two buttons, and you didn't you had a few buttons. So the original time was just the joystick and a button, but then Nintendo added a few more, and now it's like the 10 button thing. So yeah, and I wouldn't even know now. Playing video games doesn't even enter my mind today. But I I was just talking about that this week, so uh it reminded me of it. Super cool. What's the most memorable meal you've ever had, and what made it so special beyond just the food? Oh, you know what? I'll use a a recent one. I should, I should probably say, you know, like one where I got engaged and my husband, you know, something like that. But I'll use a recent one. And it was uh in between, and you you highlighted this, in between my roles, I went and did that, you know, 75 mile walk on the community of Santiago and did a Tuscan cooking adventure. So, what I will say is I'm gonna use the first time I made pasta in that Tuscany adventure. Like I was doing it all by hand. I was with a group, I basically I purposely wanted to go do this by myself. So I did this, you know, 75 mile walk in the rain, basically by myself from town to town, just following little seashells. And in Tuscany, I went on this cooking course by myself. And so it was me and a bunch of retirees. It was me and a bunch of 70-year-olds just, you know, cooking and learning for the first time. It was so lovely. First off, I felt like a kid again on this trip. And I was learning how to, you know, do it. And it was very meditative in some ways, like learning how to make the pasta. And so then having the fruits of that labor, you know, for the first time with like a nice butter sauce. You didn't have the time pressure, you you were on this great trip. Yeah, we're just able to create and enjoy. Yeah. Yes, exactly. Food is meditation, food preparation. It really is. And I think I had, and I think I had a glass of wine right there too. And like the fire was going. It was in this beautiful villa in Tuscany. So just everything about it. The people were great. I felt like a, you know, kid. We were laughing, uh, people from all over the world coming to this cooking class, people who were in a real reflective moment of their time. So I think the best meals are those moments where it's like good food, kind of actually insightful conversation. Yeah, letting things go, not feeling like you're on the clock. Exactly. And a lot of insightful conversation, people who had a lot of wisdom from their experiences. Uh, I just loved hearing about people's stories too. What's something you've noticed great leaders do consistently that seems small, but makes a huge difference?

Feedback Habits Meditation And Trust

55:54

My number one thing that I think that leaders don't do enough of is ask for feedback from their team too. So we're always giving feedback, we're always doing the coaching. But one thing that I always ask my team, my leaders, I'll get off a call, I'll give a training. I just did a change management training at this offsite this past week. It was a two and a half hour session. The first thing in my feedback survey was what could have made that 10% better? Asking a question like that, because especially when you're the leader, sometimes it can be sometimes people people can be a little nervous to give you feedback. But just doing that, what could make me 10% better, to have better supported you, to have made this training better for you? It's a low pressure way to get feedback. And it shows that you aren't scared of getting it. And so they should not be scared of it too. And it's how I give feedback too is what could have made that 10% better, even if something could have probably been 100% better. But it's it's just one of those ways that I have found myself being able to give better feedback to other people and to ask for it. Or there's the even better if. Oh, I love that. Even better if. Yeah. Oh, I love that Rajiv. I'm gonna use that now too. Because maybe it's maybe my other one's getting a little tired. So I'll do even better if. What's something you do that you're pretty sure is weird, but have no intention of stopping? And that's beyond having podcast interviews in a sauna. Oh, right. Exactly. Just to make sure everyone knows there is no sauna. I am in a log cabin. It may be weirder where I actually am maybe stranger than a sauna. I wish I was in a sauna. Okay, what is something that I do that is weird that I have no intention of changing? I am very interested in data for myself. And so I have an app on my phone called Way of Life that allows me to track certain things that I do daily because I believe that, you know, the only way that you can make progress is in the things that you daily track or you know, you do daily. So one of those things that I have been doing daily for at least five years, and I could probably give you my how many, how many days, I have meditated, I think 2,253 days, something like that. I can look it up right now in a row. But what is weird about that is obviously meditation is meant to be, you know, a little bit your higher self. But the fact that I am type A about the meditation and tracking my meditation is maybe one of those things that maybe I should maybe let go. But I'd like to know that. I'd love to be able to tell you that I just was. I think it's probably what keeps you going. It probably keeps you on meditation, which is a long-term benefit as opposed to a short-term immediate benefit. I mean, there's the immediate feeling of feeling that release, but the benefits tend to occur over long periods. And I would tell any, I would tell any executive, any any person, frankly, anyone, to meditate. It was and what I realized was it was the hardest thing. Like I lift weights, I go on hikes, like I do all of this like stuff that I I love to like be a hardcore worker outer, but the hardest thing that is that I've ever done is meditate. And so I knew because of who I am, I knew I was like, okay, if that's hard, then I need to lean into it more. Some days it's only five minutes, some days it's 20, some days it's 30. I haven't gone to any of those like meditation retreats that may be taken a little too far. That's a bit much. But yeah. I think it might be tough. But you know what? Maybe one day. Look, I did that, I did the hike, I did the food course with the old people. Maybe I'll know. It's the next adventure. So if you could sit down with the person you'll be in 10 years, what do you think they would tell you to stop worrying about right now? I love that. I think it would be something like trust your preparation, trust your expertise. The same thing I would tell myself back when I was younger. Or don't you remember you're always nervous every time anything new comes up and you do it anyway, right? So just to always like you, you do it anyway, trust yourself, trust your preparation. I remember I had a soccer coach who, whenever we were nervous, that was what she said. She just would look at us and go, trust your preparation. And if you do trust your preparation or your expertise, or even just trust yourself that you're gonna figure it out, I think that will be the learning of my life. And I've gotten better since, you know, if I were telling myself 10 years ago, but I think it will be the thing that I'm always telling myself to like just remember, believe in yourself, keep pushing. You got this. Well, I can't think of a better way to close out this discussion. So thank you so much, Bridget, for joining me today and sharing all your learnings with our audience. Just really appreciate having you there. You have such great energy and you've learned so much. And thank you for your willingness to share. Well, I've learned so much about wine now, too. I I've got to be honest. And this was so much fun, Rajiv. Thank y'all for having me.

Closing Thanks And Where To Listen

1:00:53

All right, thanks for listening. If you enjoyed the pod, please take a moment to rate it and comment. You can find us on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, and everywhere podcasts can be found. The show is produced by Anand Shah and edited by Laura Ballant, production assistant by Taryn Talley. I'm your host, Rajiv Perik from Position Squared. We're a leading AI driven growth marketing company based in Silicon Valley. Come visit us at Position2.com. This has been an F Funny production, and we'll catch you next time. And remember, folks, be ever curious.